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don't forget cool herders, Maqiupai, inhabitants, and feet of fury 
Note by lordnikon: This thread was was split off from a previous thread where I listed the official new releases in order of release date. Kingbuzzo's reply above was in response to that. Then the conversation continued as follows. The discussion was split off from its previous topic of origin, into this new topic. |
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| _________________ Pso: Kingbuzzo lvl 80 QUake 3: [OC] Kingbuzzo |
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Those games are considered by many as Professional Homebrew releases, rather than officially sanctioned game titles released with Sega's seal of approval. They are not packaged with official Dreamcast packaging. They are certaintly considered as professionally developed and marketed titles available for purchase, but they arn't really in the same league as the games listed above.
A professional homebrew release won't be considered "the last" Dreamcast title, in the same way Last Hope for the Neo Geo won't, and the many Atari Jaguar homebrew releases won't as well. |
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| _________________ I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list... |
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lordnikon wrote: They are in the same league as the official releases, except they aren't on GD-ROM. They're beyond homebrew. Dan Loosen and I are working our butts off trying to get people to disassociate the commercial releases with homebrew. They're independent titles, yes. But they are definately not homebrew. Those games are considered by many as Professional Homebrew releases, rather than officially sanctioned game titles released with Sega's seal of approval. They are not packaged with official Dreamcast packaging. They are certaintly considered as professionally developed and marketed titles available for purchase, but they arn't really in the same league as the games listed above. |
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Ok I was just trying to name them something to distinguish them somehow from homebrew, so I added the word professional. I agree with you that these releases are in another league than homebrew. I consider them independent Dreamcast releases for sure. I just do not consider them in the same basket of eggs as games like Border Down, King of Fighters 2002, Radilgy / Radirgy, etc etc. That was the main point I was trying to make.
Even if someone developed a game just as professional as any of the the newest DC releases, it still doesn't matter. The new independant games arn't pressed up and packaged with official Dreamcast packaging. They are not recorded in Sega's catalog with an ID number. It doesn't make these new independant titles any less professional in terms of their quality and gameplay. I am just saying there is a line between an official Dreamcast release, and an independant release. The new indie releases are carrying the torch so to speak, ushering in a new era of Dreamcast games. (P.S. What are the new independant games pressed to? High-Grade CD?) |
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| _________________ I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list... |
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lordnikon wrote: Yeah. They use the Dreamcast Mil-CD format (the format that Sega designed to allow music CDs to have "enhanced for Dreamcast" features).
(P.S. What are the new independant games pressed to? High-Grade CD?) Going on sort of a tangent here: The one side effect of this format is that it allows pirated games to boot directly. Sega made a last ditch effort to get rid of the Mil-CD format by installing a new bios in some revision 2 Dreamcasts, but it was too little too late. Not every revision 2 Dreamcast has a new bios to remove Mil-CD compatibility. Some of the revision 2 Dreamcasts used the old bios stock. Also, apparantly this only affects the NTSC-U Dreamcasts and the NTSC-J Dreamcasts. All revision 2 systems that are PAL have been reported to work with the Mil-CD format. Going off on another tangent: I don't really find it fair that people don't count our releases with the official releases. They have to be assured for quality before they are released just like the official releases. Also, why discount the independent releases due to the fact that their standardized packaging is different? All three regions have a different standardized packaging. We do have Sega approval to program software for the Dreamcast. The KOS development kit was given a BSD-style license at the request of John Byrd, who was at the time the head of Developer Tech Support at Sega of America. The reason for this was so that the license would not conflict with the official license, and thus would allow for games developed with KallistiOS to be officially released. Oh, and I know I can come off as blunt in my posts, but I'm not singling you out. I'm just getting tired of the comments the independent releases get - especially at the official Sega boards. I'd rather get this stuff of my chest here rather than there as the average age of people on that board is about 11 years old. I know that you're not bashing them in any way. |
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MetaFox wrote:
...I don't really find it fair that people don't count our releases with the official releases. They have to be assured for quality before they are released just like the official releases. Also, why discount the independent releases due to the fact that their standardized packaging is different? All three regions have a different standardized packaging... I'm not discounting or descrediting the games. People freak out because the spine card is missing from a JP release. Or because a US game has no manual. People could press up their own right? But in the back of their minds the new manual or spine card STILL wouldn't be the same. Even if they went out and shopped around for the exact stock paper and printed it with pro machines. In the end the person would still feel that his or her new spine card is not legitimate and was homemade. The idea of collecting games and their complete materials has always been a part of any serious hobby. Some people even save the stickers from the outter wrapper, and also the user registration cards and survey forms for the games as well. I am by no means saying this is sane. Hell I do it. I save all this meaningly shit. I found my old Genesis box in the garage, and brought it in cleaning it like it was the holy grail! Its cardboard with ink on it!!! What am I doing? A percentace of people will never wholeheartedly accept them as Dreamcast games in the same veign as Capcom vs SNK, or PSO, or Evolution, or Zero Gunner 2, etc etc. Another percentage of people will say they accept them as Official Releases, but in the back of their minds they actually have them distinguised differently. Then you have the people that actually do consider these games as official releases. There is a stigma that will continue to be associated with Independant releases. People are always going to perceive these releases in a different way. I personally cannot see what negative drawbacks there are to placing the games into 2 seperate catagories. What backlash is there? MetaFox wrote:
Oh, and I know I can come off as blunt in my posts, but I'm not singling you out. I'm just getting tired of the comments the independent releases get - especially at the official Sega boards. I'd rather get this stuff of my chest here rather than there as the average age of people on that board is about 11 years old. I know that you're not bashing them in any way. I knew you were talking in broad terms. I am rediculiously blunt as well. |
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| _________________ I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list... |
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I can see the negative effects of having two different catagories. By having one being an "Official Release" you're immediately associating it with the Dreamcast and SEGA, whereas the term "professional homebrews" brings to mind images of just the publishers/developers and the homebrew scene. Therefor, collectors, or people low on money but who want dearly to support the Dreamcast scene, might buy the NAOMI conversion because they know that when push comes to shove, if they want more SEGA Direct games or NAOMI games, their purchase could help. I know that almost all (if not all) the shmups have sold better than GOATS games, and, in my mind, its not really that fair. It gets more and more annoying when people clamor for games other than shmups when they ARE being released, just on the other side of the pond. People just don't think of them as the same because one's being released SEGA Direct and is a conversion from NAOMI boards, while the other is being released from a company stateside. I don't support this practice, but I do think it'll continue to happen. Nobody here is against you, Metafox, but just like the general public technically puts Dreamcast behind PS2 even though that isn't true (an example here, not an invitation to start an argument), some Dreamcaster's assume that there will be something less professional about Dan Loosen and the GOAT team's releases.
P.S. Shouldn't we probably break this thread up (UNDER DEFEAT/discussion on differences between GOAT releases and NAOMI conversions)? |
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| _________________ TC Titans here I come! (Remember the Titans, yeah that's right) Check out my collection! |
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| i agree with what you are saying there , but if games like cool herders get large or large enough sales there may be a chance of them releasing another aswell. anyway , i am desperate to know if under defeat is 2 player or not, publishers we need to know!!!!!!! lol | ||||
| _________________ It has to start somewhere It has to start sometime What better place than here What better time than now All hell can't stop us now |
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pakkitman wrote: That's my point exactly. Putting the releases into different categories just reinforces this ill-conceived belief. some Dreamcaster's assume that there will be something less professional about Dan Loosen and the GOAT team's releases. |
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MetaFox wrote:
pakkitman wrote: That's my point exactly. Putting the releases into different categories just reinforces this ill-conceived belief. some Dreamcaster's assume that there will be something less professional about Dan Loosen and the GOAT team's releases. well you know the only way that people will believe them to be more prefesional is if they were liscensed by sega. |
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| _________________ Pretty music wot i has made: http://grandcanonicalensemble.bandcamp.com/ |
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pakkitman wrote:
I can see the negative effects of having two different catagories. By having one being an "Official Release" you're immediately associating it with the Dreamcast and SEGA, whereas the term "professional homebrews" brings to mind images of just the publishers/developers and the homebrew scene. Therefor, collectors, or people low on money but who want dearly to support the Dreamcast scene, might buy the NAOMI conversion because they know that when push comes to shove, if they want more SEGA Direct games or NAOMI games, their purchase could help. I know that almost all (if not all) the shmups have sold better than GOATS games, and, in my mind, its not really that fair. It gets more and more annoying when people clamor for games other than shmups when they ARE being released, just on the other side of the pond. People just don't think of them as the same because one's being released SEGA Direct and is a conversion from NAOMI boards, while the other is being released from a company stateside. I don't support this practice, but I do think it'll continue to happen. Nobody here is against you, Metafox, but just like the general public technically puts Dreamcast behind PS2 even though that isn't true (an example here, not an invitation to start an argument), some Dreamcaster's assume that there will be something less professional about Dan Loosen and the GOAT team's releases.
P.S. Shouldn't we probably break this thread up (UNDER DEFEAT/discussion on differences between GOAT releases and NAOMI conversions)? I am getting sick of the whole "support the dreamcast scene" fist pumping. I don't feel people should have to be convinced or talked into buying products at this stage. If you are a Dreamcast gamer, and are looking for a new title to buy, the ones you purchase should be done with honesty! Buying a game that you don't like, just to "support the scene" is fake and phony. Only purchase the game if you actually like playing that type of game. I have said this before, especially when Trizeal was released. The shmups sell better because the majority of the people purchasing the game are gamers who: Play arcade games on a regular basis Play shmups on a regular basis 3rd party entities buying up copies to resell on eBay By releasing these shooters on the Dreamcast the developers are able to pinpoint a target audience. The same people buying these games are those who are buying Raiden III, Mushihimesama, Espgaluda, XII-Stag, on the Playstation 2. The number of forum discussions on Dreamcast websites about shmups is relatively slim compared to the arcade-centric communities who have little to do with the Dreamcast specific gaming scene. When and if Ring Age gets released, the amount of non-japanese buyers for this game will be far less than the shooters. You will however see more of the dating sim / rpg audience from Japan buying this game to pick up the slack. ---
Sometimes I donate money to an open source project, but I only do so if I whole heartedly use the product they develop. I don't buy these shooters because I am trying to "support the scene". I may feel better about my purchase than your average game because I know my money is going to mean more to its recipient than some big corporation. However in the end it all comes down to, "Do I actually play these video games?" Shmups are my favorite game genre. I have been playing them ever since the atari 2600 with chopper command, twin cobra on the nes, and a ton of shooters on the Genesis, and the rest is history. It has been a part of my gaming realm since I first started playing games. My Playstation 1 shmup collection outnumbers my current DC shmup collection. I would be buying all of these shooters regardless of what platform they came out on. Actually, here is a good question: How many of you are buying Raiden III for the Playstation 2? I bet if this game was coming to the Dreamcast you all would be planning to possibly purchase it. However since its not, you won't be buying it. And for those of you who say "But setting up a PS2 for imports is more difficult", yes this is true, but you lucky SOB's in europe are getting this game released (lucky bastards hehe). I understand some people do not own a PS2. The fact is I am trying to prove a point; that a lot of the gamers deeply embedded within the Dreamcast gaming scene are buying these shooters but do not actually play the genre. This is a good thing in some respects since I have seen QUITE a few gamers become shooter fans in the process. On the other hand you have people who do not play or enjoy these games, but are buying them anyway. A clear cut case of Blind Commercialism. ---
Ok and finally, sorry to really get frustrated about this(the volume of my text here is a bit of a parody so don't get offended), but PS2????? Dreamcast?????? Come ON ALREADY. Are we still doing this? Who gives a flying fuck what the mainstream public thinks. Great, some dumbass flaming dick on some forum is trying to have "CONSOLE WARS" and argue which system is better. Who fucking cares? It baffles me why some people can't ever drop this garbage and are still hell bent on carrying on an industry feud from the year 2000. I wonder what would happen if I created a rogue account here, signed in and said "Playstation 2 own0rz the Dreamcast!!!111 LOL!1one!11!!eleven!!". I wonder how many people would get baited into having a huge bicker session about this. What a waste of time. As far as professionalism. I have said it already, and I do not feel there is anything less professional about GOAT Team's releases. This is a case of Apples and Oranges. There is nothing wrong with either of them, they just have different classifications. Classifications that are a perception of some, but not by others, because each person's viewpoint is relative to the information they have available to them as well as their life experiences. MetaFox wrote:
pakkitman wrote: That's my point exactly. Putting the releases into different categories just reinforces this ill-conceived belief. some Dreamcaster's assume that there will be something less professional about Dan Loosen and the GOAT team's releases. If this is the primary motivation for classifying new Independant releases as Official Dreamcast games, then now you are moving outside of True Dreamcast Fan territory. This now falls into the classification of marketing. Anyone legitimatly interested in the Dreamcast as a hobby doesn't need to be told or convinced that these games are Official. Real gamers will buy good games regardless of their classification. It seems to me the real problem here is roping in casual Dreamcast gamers, or Non-Dreamcast gamers into buying these games. So, by getting the message across that these games are Official, you in theory have a better chance of a sale. If this is the case, then this all falls under the marketing catagory. |
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| _________________ I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list... |
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lordnikon wrote: By getting the message across that they are official, one would be lying.
So, by getting the message across that these games are Official, you in theory have a better chance of a sale. If this is the case, then this all falls under the marketing catagory. They're independent games. I'm just trying to get people to stop saying "I don't count the GOAT Store releases as new releases for the Dreamcast." That's unfair. I have a what-if scenario for you: What if the GOAT Store did get official status for the Dreamcast releases? What if they use exactly the same packaging as they do now, but they'd no longer have to put up the disclaimer "Not endorsed or licensed by Sega". Would that make the releases any different then you view them now? |
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MetaFox wrote:
I have a what-if scenario for you: What if the GOAT Store did get official status for the Dreamcast releases? What if they use exactly the same packaging as they do now, but they'd no longer have to put up the disclaimer "Not endorsed or licensed by Sega". Would that make the releases any different then you view them now? If the games were released in the same format and treatment with all of the official seals of approval, endorsement and liscense of any other official Dreamcast release, then yes I would classify the games as belonging to the same evolutionary ladder as your averate Dreamcast game. |
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| _________________ I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list... |
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| on the subject, has anyone seen "GOAT games" its a compilation of games that is geting released, it has backing from all the independent releases so far!! wonder if it will have all of these games on it? | ||||
| _________________ It has to start somewhere It has to start sometime What better place than here What better time than now All hell can't stop us now |
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lozz wrote: Actually, we've been off the thread subject for a long time so worry not. GOAT Games isn't a compilation of their previous releases, rather it is a collection of different games by independent developers. It will incorparate many genres, and all will have online rankings. There is already a thread on this in the Dreamcast Lounge, though. As for Metafox and Lordnikon's observations, its obvious that you both have different views on the games and your views won't change. To tell you the truth, classification doesn't matter to me, its really about how the game plays. Metafox: I understand your points and where you're coming from, but all I'm saying is that, even if GOAT's games were the best games in the world, they wouldn't be in the history books with say Ikaruga. We all appreciate the games and what GOAT Publishing has done for the Dreamcast, but from a technical standpoint, they aren't official. I look forward to GOAT's releases, but in the back of my mind, I'll remember that it isn't an official release. These are just facts, and a bias will stay surrounding unofficial releases with most gamers regardless (awkwardly phrased I know). I'm glad you and Dan Loosen are trying to overturn these biases, but for now, and most likely for many more years, they'll remain. on the subject, has anyone seen "GOAT games" its a compilation of games that is geting released, it has backing from all the independent releases so far!! wonder if it will have all of these games on it? |
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| _________________ TC Titans here I come! (Remember the Titans, yeah that's right) Check out my collection! |
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