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killer-elite
rank 7
Posted:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:17 pm
quote : #1
profile : pm
Posts: 61
"Sports fans should be pretty excited right about now. World Series Baseball 2K2 has been brought back online for the first time in 15 years and this is just the beginning! All of Visual Concept's sports titles will be revived in due time and Shuouma wants YOU to decide which of them you want back online next! Simply cast your vote in the poll below and let him know! The poll will stay open for two weeks."

"Which 2K sports title are you most looking foward to?"

Cast your votes now so that Shu can work his magic for the next Sports Game, Good Luck!


Dreamcast Live - Poll
http://www.dreamcastlive.net/blogs/post/Poll-Which-2K-Sports-Game-Do-You-Want-Revived-Next/
 
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:29 pm
quote : #2
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Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
Why would there be a need for a vote? I am under the assumption if one server has been put up for WSB2K2, and an Ooga Booga server is up already, the code should support other Visual Concepts titles as well. If this was Shouma's first rodeo on emulating online infrastructure I would not make this statement, but considering how much progress he has made on other games, I can only assume the code for the other Visual Concepts games is already done.

Trotting them out over the course of the summer like some marketing campaign seems counter productive.

I am looking at things of course from a broader historical viewpoint and preservation perspective.

If someone could enlighten me as to the need for a voting system, and potential staggering of infrastructure layout I would love to know more. How does a community vote at this juncture aid in writing any further code or in the associated tasks with putting up a working server?
  _________________
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Nico0020
rank 11
Posted:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:57 am
quote : #3
profile : pm
Posts: 167
Type: NTSC-U
I think he is just having a little bit of fun, that's all.

Perhaps also just to see what games would be most interested in being played by the community. TBH I think the sports games will be some of the least played games by the current DC online community; as there are countless online sports games in the world, but there is only one Ooga Booga or Alien Front Online. It makes more sense to put out the ones first that people are most excited to play. I understand one of the most important things is to preserve these games online features, but right now DC gamers are super excited to see things coming back online.
 
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:05 pm
quote : #4
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Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
If one had to choose I guess the 2K2 iterations because they are a bit more polished. Then again, there could be some nostalgia for the first online sports game in NFL 2K1. Though NBA 2K1 followed just 2 months later. I never really liked college sports games, but some seem to appreciate the sheer number of teams that NCAA 2K2 has.

If there is per-game debugging needed, and it is easier to focus on one game at a time by releasing them like this, then yea I can understand. I just think given that it has indeed been 15 years, why delay deployment unecessarily, especially through a summer where these games were shutdown. I guess that summer really sits in my mind as a moment in time because of the level of attrition that occurred. Crying or Very sad

When it comes to preservation I am thinking of far more complex scenarios of bitrot, where even if the server software and source code are released, problems still occur. Tribes Aerial Assault's dedicated server (AADS) is a good example. DreamPi already has some issues on Debian 7 due to pip package dependency installs in a from scratch setup. Then there is that whole IPv4 thing looming on the horizon.
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dxtriad
rank 1
Posted:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:50 pm
quote : #5
profile : pm
Posts: 4
Hey Lord

1. I want the DC community to be a part of the releases, therefore they can vote what game they want back first, which will become the pilot.

2. I don't want to be like others that have secret forums and never release server code or information even thou they proclaim there are for preservation and sharing knowledge.

3. Ooga Booga and WSB2K2 utilizes exactly the same protocol (OB of course have a extended version), therefore OB was the pilot for that protocol version.

4. The other games have similar but not exactly the same protocol, therefore I always want to have a pilot out first to see if it works and resolve issues that might occur.

5. Who said anything about releasing during the summer?

6. Have you ever released a game server? If you did, or probably could..you would know that it generates time to answer questions, issues, ports, etc etc.

7. I will release my source code for preservation, more then I can say for others in the DC community.

I can reverse a lot of online servers, but I got stuck here in the DC community because they are the best. They deserve it, so I will continue. Hopefully you will join us some day.

Peace out!
 
Xiden
rank 5
Posted:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:45 pm
quote : #6
profile : pm
Posts: 33
lordnikon wrote:
Why would there be a need for a vote? I am under the assumption if one server has been put up for WSB2K2, and an Ooga Booga server is up already, the code should support other Visual Concepts titles as well. If this was Shouma's first rodeo on emulating online infrastructure I would not make this statement, but considering how much progress he has made on other games, I can only assume the code for the other Visual Concepts games is already done.

Trotting them out over the course of the summer like some marketing campaign seems counter productive.

I am looking at things of course from a broader historical viewpoint and preservation perspective.

If someone could enlighten me as to the need for a voting system, and potential staggering of infrastructure layout I would love to know more. How does a community vote at this juncture aid in writing any further code or in the associated tasks with putting up a working server?


I guess this is the negativity I refer to and others in the DC community are kinda annoyed with (again not trying to be rude just this comes of as a standoff-ish reply to this post). I know most of us don't mind a voting system on which game to release next. It gives everyone time to enjoy the current released game and time to debug issues.

I agree that if people are holding back code that could potentially revive old services they should share it (if legally possible obviously) with the community and not hold it hostage for ransom or whatever. I've personally contributed all my Sega Saturn online stuff the community because I want everyone to enjoy it and of course preservation Smile
 
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:04 am
quote : #7
profile : pm
Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
Hey Xiden, first let me start off by saying I am very opinionated. I tend to take things rather seriously and it is reflected in how I communicate. (Props to Nico0020 for knowing this and going with the flow, which I attempted to do in-turn.)

I asked a few tough questions about the voting concept. My response was not overly jubilant gushing with positivity, but I don't feel it was negative either. There is a difference between negative posting and presenting viewpoints designed to spur thought, challenge an idea, and generate discourse. Some people want no part in this, so they end up saying, "Why you gotta be like that?"

Then again, there is also the saying: "Perception is Reality". So if what I say is perceived as negative, then it is. Though, I can live with that. I don't hold back opinions knowing others might be sensitive to them.

Xiden, what Sega Saturn stuff? Very Happy I am interested Smile I myself went on an extensive quest to archive a historical of Saturn's main SMS emulator.
  _________________
I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list...
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:10 am
quote : #8
profile : pm
Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
To address dxtriad's points 3, 4, and 5: I thought I read the games would go live 1 per month. I could have been wrong, please correct me. If some of the games have slight variations in function, then I agree it does make sense to not roll them out all at once. Especially if activity in Game A is needed to refine a server for Game B.

For the other bullet points, I want to make some over-arching comments to clear the air:

I need to make this abundantly clear: I do not code servers. I have never written a single line of code to even attempt it. I "run" servers (as best I can), I test, log packets, and aid projects due to my abundance of hardware/software; as well as being an archivist. That's it. I have no secret dev boards at OC, though I did create one temporarily to try and help Petterk with AFO. I actually wanted to keep this stuff off OC, and started a side site called OF Project.

DreamcastTM and I sit in cyberspace and try to hash stuff out together. He is a really smart guy and does most of the coding. I am along for the ride to test and ideate. We released an open source TAA (PS2) Master List together, and DreamcastTM contributed to PlanetRing's server in its early infancy.

I may not contribute code to restoring servers, but I do code. I am extremely proficient in bash, and I am a Web Application Developer by profession. So dxtriad, I do understand that it takes time to address questions and fix issues post-initial software release.

I am not holding back any server software. I keep telling people this, but people still feel otherwise. I released the Starlancer Server binaries, and the Maximum Pool server was made available on another board but I never mirrored it at OC. I, unfortunately, have done a terrible job of persisting functional links to these files. Not only has OC been in a paused state while I figure out its direction, but I am archiving stuff, which destroys my time. Like the 93% complete Sega.com Forum Archive, which took me 4 months to write code to retrieve over a million files and not have wget gobble up 10's of GB of RAM (forums.sega.com recently shutdown btw).

I started OC when I was 23. I am now 38. I have observed and learned a lot over the years, and it has been frustrating to see how fractured the community has been. Problems have come from all sides, and I fully admit to having done problematic things in the past. Its comments like "Hopefully you will join us some day" that still show how far away we are from being a unified community. I run and administrate a DC Online board, have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on server hosting, ran many DC Online services for Quake 3 and other games, and keep trying my very best to contribute. I released the Nokia SNAP kit when asked, and provided Petterk with a data backup after his HD crash, among many other things. Yet, I am an outsider? Embarassed ok.

There are a lot of passionate people interested in DC Online. They want more people to play and talk about DC Online, but... only where they are at. Forums exist, but no community. Sides need to be dissolved and we all need to come together. I am going to be doing my best this year to work towards big picture goals.
  _________________
I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list...
Dreamcast ™
rank 39
Posted:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:06 pm
quote : #9
profile : pm
Posts: 916
Type: NTSC-U/C
Quote:
2. I don't want to be like others that have secret forums and never release server code or information even thou they proclaim there are for preservation and sharing knowledge.


Link to your public forum documenting all of your step-by-step progress / research? Link to your public Github / Gitlab with daily pushes? Link to public thread requesting beta testers? Link to public thread documenting pre-release tests with PCWzrd13 and anyone else that shows up in the announcement videos?

The point is you have channels / means / methods for bringing games back online that are FAR from transparent until you decide to release your binaries / source. You have your reasons for doing so and myself and many others haven't questioned it. I have my own reasons too; take Chu Chu Rocket for example. Chu Chu Rocket's online features were 99% restored since 2010, but I didn't release anything because it became a deeply personal project for me, so figuring out the final piece of the puzzle (getting the game to connect all the players in the room together after a game start command was issued) became a personal challenge I'd revisit from time to time as either my proficiency as a programmer or analytical skills improved. The project became a metric for my development as a developer. I had every intention to eventually release the server in source form, thus sharing knowledge and ensuring portability for preservation, but, like you, chose not to release until it was tried and true.

Quote:
5. Who said anything about releasing during the summer?


I did. I sent Nikon a link to this forum post back in February and, from the math we did, we worked out that it would probably be around the summer of 2018 before any source code became available.

Quote:
7. I will release my source code for preservation, more then I can say for others in the DC community.


Again, smug and throwing stones in a glass house. Your (meaning Dxtriad / Shuouma) source code only gets released when you decide it's ready. So, is it not possible others who haven't released their code are also withholding theirs because they don't feel the state of their project is complete / stable enough for release or they're extra particular about the quality of the code they write? I have libraries I've written that often have five to ten sub-folders with different versions of the same library because it took me that many tries to strike a balance between what I find efficient and user-friendly. Until you start releasing code from the first line written, please don't put yourself on a pedestal.

Quote:
Hopefully you will join us some day.


I give you a lot of credit for what you've been able to accomplish with bringing games back online, but sometimes people are so smart in one area that it creates a serious deficit in another. Your statement, as well-intentioned as it may have been intended, shows a clear lack of ability to see the forest through the trees. You're literally posting on the forum that, still to this day, is cited as a source of information about the Dreamcast's online features. Lordnikon "joined you" in 2003 when he created this forum not knowing the cornerstone it would become for information on the online features of the Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Playstation 2 consoles. Where do you think the DreamPi got the ability to act as its own tone generator? (Hint). Where do you think research originated from regarding modem types affecting their ability to connect without assistance on the line? (Hint). The fact that Nikon has kept this site online for 15 years and is actively trying to improve upon it should make it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is every much a part of this community as we all are and shares the same vested interest in keeping it going (hence his valid concern for preservation).
 
Xiden
rank 5
Posted:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:18 am
quote : #10
profile : pm
Posts: 33
Dreamcast ™ wrote:
Quote:
2. I don't want to be like others that have secret forums and never release server code or information even thou they proclaim there are for preservation and sharing knowledge.


Link to your public forum documenting all of your step-by-step progress / research? Link to your public Github / Gitlab with daily pushes? Link to public thread requesting beta testers? Link to public thread documenting pre-release tests with PCWzrd13 and anyone else that shows up in the announcement videos?

The point is you have channels / means / methods for bringing games back online that are FAR from transparent until you decide to release your binaries / source. You have your reasons for doing so and myself and many others haven't questioned it. I have my own reasons too; take Chu Chu Rocket for example. Chu Chu Rocket's online features were 99% restored since 2010, but I didn't release anything because it became a deeply personal project for me, so figuring out the final piece of the puzzle (getting the game to connect all the players in the room together after a game start command was issued) became a personal challenge I'd revisit from time to time as either my proficiency as a programmer or analytical skills improved. The project became a metric for my development as a developer. I had every intention to eventually release the server in source form, thus sharing knowledge and ensuring portability for preservation, but, like you, chose not to release until it was tried and true.

Quote:
5. Who said anything about releasing during the summer?


I did. I sent Nikon a link to this forum post back in February and, from the math we did, we worked out that it would probably be around the summer of 2018 before any source code became available.

Quote:
7. I will release my source code for preservation, more then I can say for others in the DC community.


Again, smug and throwing stones in a glass house. Your (meaning Dxtriad / Shuouma) source code only gets released when you decide it's ready. So, is it not possible others who haven't released their code are also withholding theirs because they don't feel the state of their project is complete / stable enough for release or they're extra particular about the quality of the code they write? I have libraries I've written that often have five to ten sub-folders with different versions of the same library because it took me that many tries to strike a balance between what I find efficient and user-friendly. Until you start releasing code from the first line written, please don't put yourself on a pedestal.

Quote:
Hopefully you will join us some day.


I give you a lot of credit for what you've been able to accomplish with bringing games back online, but sometimes people are so smart in one area that it creates a serious deficit in another. Your statement, as well-intentioned as it may have been intended, shows a clear lack of ability to see the forest through the trees. You're literally posting on the forum that, still to this day, is cited as a source of information about the Dreamcast's online features. Lordnikon "joined you" in 2003 when he created this forum not knowing the cornerstone it would become for information on the online features of the Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Playstation 2 consoles. Where do you think the DreamPi got the ability to act as its own tone generator? (Hint). Where do you think research originated from regarding modem types affecting their ability to connect without assistance on the line? (Hint). The fact that Nikon has kept this site online for 15 years and is actively trying to improve upon it should make it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is every much a part of this community as we all are and shares the same vested interest in keeping it going (hence his valid concern for preservation).


And where might your links to your code be then? I can point out where shu has shared his server code, where is your code? Shu is the only one doing any reversing at all so I'm not sure why you are all so damn bitter about the speed in which certain things are released.

I've give you credit for pointing out some ideas for dreamcast modems, but for implementation of things Like dreampi that goes to Kazade. Yes this site is pretty cool LordNikon did a great job on it, that's why I like to keep you guys in the loop when things are brought back online/revived or whatever because its something we all should enjoy.

Suddenly though it seems maybe there's some jealously involved over nothing....
 
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:52 pm
quote : #11
profile : pm
Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
No bitterness here for the rate of software release. Initial comments were made regarding how a voting process interplayed with the rollout of servers for 7 games with similar network codebases. I cannot control when or if someone will even release data for a server.

I can speak for DreamcastTM, there is no jealousy involved. He has nothing but respect for the progress Shu has made so far with his servers. As for DreamPi he was merely saying information here was a guiding hand for DreamPi. The python code is all Kazade and DCTM didn't say anything to the contrary. These statements were made by DCTM to clarify historical context and dissolve the notion of people being inside or outside the circle. We should all be in the same circle.

The inability to identify what the Dreamcast Online community should encompass seems to be tied to this lack of historical context.

For example:

Xiden wrote:
Shu is the only one doing any reversing at all...


This is not accurate. The list is long and varied, with the following individuals contributing code to released server functionality on the Dreamcast: Schthack, Bluecrab, Neoblast, Indiket, Petterk, Shuouma, Luigi A, DreamcastTM. This is just a short list, there are many more.

Look closer at what DCTM is trying to say. DCTM's comments were not designed to solidify some sort of score keeping in server restoration. This isn't a competition. He is saying we have all been following the same process flow, which has been writing code and releasing it at a rate left up to the sole discression of the primary developer. Shu's excursion into ChuChu Rocket was no different than DCTM's. Both Shu and DCTM started working on the challenge of writing a server for ChuChu Rocket, on their own time, in an isolated environment. Shu's server reached a point of code maturity and a working state to where a release was made, where-as DreamcastTM's server solution still needed more work, hence no release yet. Neither project was open sourced in an incomplete non-working state earlier in its life cycle.

We have a vision for where certain aspects of the Dreamcast Online restoration community should be, and its not some back alley negotiation ending in an information exchange. We will all find a greater level of success via collaborating in an open source repository early on in a project, with issue creation, pull requests, and code reviews.

When I say collaborate, I am not necessarily referring to the people in this thread. Maybe we start a bunch of new projects and the collaboration happens from another direction, from people we don't even know yet. To his credit, Neoblast was a huge proponant of this way of thinking, but myself and DreamcastTM just weren't there yet. We were more concerned with protecting a path without the weight/stress of the community baring down on us for status updates. We are in a different position now in terms of knowledge and experience, so we are making changes.
  _________________
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Dreamcast ™
rank 39
Posted:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am
quote : #12
profile : pm
Posts: 916
Type: NTSC-U/C
Xiden wrote:
And where might your links to your code be then?


Are you reading what's in this thread or skimming it for gotchas? Nikon has already stated: "We released an open source TAA (PS2) Master List together".

Xiden wrote:
I can point out where shu has shared his server code, where is your code?


Again, see above.

Xiden wrote:
Shu is the only one doing any reversing at all


Nikon did an awesome roll call on this, and there are many others working on this too, but since your current fixation is links, here are a couple: Read the first line | This is a screenshot of a WSB2K2 server not created by Shuouma .

Xiden wrote:
so I'm not sure why you are all so damn bitter about the speed in which certain things are released.


We're bitten, not bitter. The longer things go without a release, the greater the chance they'll end up like the official servers. Before you start typing up a reply to call me out for doing the same thing, there's one significant difference you need to understand.

Aside from keeping a couple fellow developers in the loop of what I've been working on, my research / work has been kept private. The general community has no idea when I restore features (Were you aware of Chu Chu Rocket's progress back in 2010?). So, if I don't share / release anything (immediately or otherwise), it's no harm / no foul as I didn't get the community's hopes up and I didn't bring something back online only to take it away again because I made a server available to connect to, but never released it in a way that allowed others to do the same.

Developers like Petterk have a different modus operandi. He clearly has games listed on his site as "WIP", so he's made the community aware of an effort to restore features. He provided updates and made announcements. All of this involves the community in a way that can leave community members with disappointment or even resentment for getting their hopes up if the project never reaches maturity for whatever reason. Not to mention, as a developer, now while you're trying to work on code, you've opened yourself up to a barrage of time consuming "When will it be done? How much longer?" questions to have to deal with.

Xiden wrote:
I've give you credit for pointing out some ideas for dreamcast modems, but for implementation of things Like dreampi that goes to Kazade.


For implementation of the original PC / DC server, that credit goes to Mterlouw. We could go on and on. Like Nikon said, you missed my point. My point was that because of Nikon's involvement in the community, we've had a place that has generated research / code that others have been able to expand on.

Xiden wrote:
Yes this site is pretty cool LordNikon did a great job on it, that's why I like to keep you guys in the loop when things are brought back online/revived or whatever because its something we all should enjoy.


I'll speak for myself, though I'm sure it's echoed, when I say it's appreciated.

Xiden wrote:
Suddenly though it seems maybe there's some jealously involved over nothing....


So far, Xiden, you've managed to completely mischaracterize both me and Nikon. If there seems to be anything in the community, it's that there's someone who doesn't research before they speak, and I think we've found the common denominator.

Shuouma and I have had cordial conversation via private message, so my reaction / tone in this thread was due to my disappointment in the response that was received towards other developers.
 
lordnikon
rank 86
Posted:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:16 pm
quote : #13
profile : pm
Posts: 5889
Type: NTSC-U/C
I am trying to find a settling point for this discussion. I think what has been said so far has been helpful at clarifying a lot of information.

I want to bring it all the way back to the original topic of the Vote. We already resolved this above by talking it out, but I wanted to extend off it a bit.

In your average open source project, or even a team at a company, something as simple as spaces in syntax can destroy the team. Its called "Teamicide"

function blah() {}


vs

function blah () {}


It doesn't matter which syntax is chosen as a team/project standard. What matters is whether everyone can have a civil discussion, and come to some sort of understanding. It brings everyone together in the end, and sets all parties involved up for success going forward.

This actually leads into a study on "Where do you store your ketchup?" If you take 10 people and ask them this question, some will say "I store my ketchup in the refridgerator", where-as others will say "I store my ketchup in the cupboard". If you split them into two teams, with 5 people who all store their ketchup in the fridge on Team A, and people who store ketchup in either location on Team B, "Team B" will out-perform Team A every single time.

There are so many opportunities for projects around improving and enhancing the Dreamcast's network capabilities beyond just restoring servers. I have spreadsheets of potential projects. We could be Team A, people who have the same viewpoint of the world and already agree with one another, and get the job done in 6 years. The alternative is a diverse team, Team B, and we get it done in 2 years with the bonus of higher quality. If I am trying to make a world famous shrimp sauce and ketchup is one of my key ingrediants, I want Team B.

The mailing list for the Linux Kernel has all types of fun escapades along these lines. Smile In the end though, amidst all the chaos, code eventually gets merged, and that code is usually better for it.
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mcmonkey
rank 44
Posted:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:21 pm
quote : #14
profile : pm
Posts: 1314
Type: PAL
I voted for NBA 2k2. I've never played it, and I don't have much interest in sport, but online basket ball could be fun! Very Happy
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Xiden
rank 5
Posted:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:47 pm
quote : #15
profile : pm
Posts: 33
Dreamcast ™ wrote:
So far, Xiden, you've managed to completely mischaracterize both me and Nikon. If there seems to be anything in the community, it's that there's someone who doesn't research before they speak, and I think we've found the common denominator.

Shuouma and I have had cordial conversation via private message, so my reaction / tone in this thread was due to my disappointment in the response that was received towards other developers.


So instead of going point by point with you in an endless pointless battle, I'll just boil it down for you. I replied to what I perceived was a negativity coming from LordNikon and then again replied to your elitist entitled attitude towards Shuouma. Bashing the only guy who's currently reversing games for the DC community for reasons I still do not understand seems counter productive. So no, I have not mischaracterized you. In fact your comments on this thread speak perfectly for you and I'm sure many others will attest to that.

Your one great claim to fame is some open source PS2 game server..., and some claims that you've reversed other things like "chu chu" which no evidence exists of. I'm not looking for "Gotchas" I'm just calling it like it is. Linking some random screen shot of WSB2k and a dead worthless dcserv site isn't evidence of anything of your contributions for the Dreamcast community.
 
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