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Syndalis
rank 8
Posted:
Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:42 pm
quote : #16
profile : pm
Posts: 77
lordnikon wrote:
Syndalis wrote:
someone needs to get the link games online.

Once upon a time, the xbox did not have the live service, but allowed people to link systems via hubs / ethernet and play games with multiple systems. some creative folks made an app that read the packets the xbox was putting out, compressed the HELL out of them, and sent them over the net to the same program on another machine, which decompressed them and sent them to the xbox there.

My theory is that with a serial to PC cable, an application could be written to act as a "middle man" hoisting the data over the web, and in turn, "emulating" the dreamcast's serial port.

I do not know what the data rate is on the serial port, but I imagine that, being serial, it is probably capped around 128k. with compression you could slip that through a 56k connection (maybe), as I doubt they cared about compresssing the data between the systems. however, the latency would probably be a major issue, which means this would be reserved for the broadband users, if it were t happen.

The big question is, woul the (somewhat) little effort that would go into this app be worth it for the games that it would (possibly) enable?

waffle makers don't cook pancakes


Umm, perhaps sarcasm, lord? Heh Wink

I am serious when I say that it would not be a hard application to write. This is ALOT easier than writing a game. Essentially, you would just be connecting two serial ports via internet middleware, and making "packets" that are uncompressed to their original state at the other end.

I am fully aware that the protocol being used is NOT tcp/ip. However, the data could be sent via tcp/ip, and re-sent by the PC to the console.

I am almost positive broadband users only would be able to utilize this, were it to happen at all. Latency is 0 over the serial cable, and I do not know how the games would react to a little bit of latency.
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The Coming of the White...
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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:12 pm
quote : #17
profile : pm
Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
First of all if its so simple, then why don't you program it? Maybe by next week you could be done? I don't mean to sound harsh, just trying to knock some sense into people. This stuff is not as easy as you think it is. First of all are you even a programmer? Yourself, are you experienced in programming enough to really understand the scope of figuring this stuff out?

Countless threads pop up all the time where people, who do not have any real technical knowledge on the subject say, "oh this shouldn't be hard at all, hopefully some homebrew/programmer will whip up a server for us, its only a matter of time, someone find some guy and make him do this!"

It baffles me how many times I see people saying this exact same thing.

Wanna know how hard this would be? This thing that you say, 'would not be a hard application to write'.

Let me show you just how hard it is:

A quote by programmer Scott Robinson:
"I thought it would easy to do because the Dreamcast link cables are just serial ports with a different voltage than normal computers. Of course, I quickly found out otherwise..."

Scott had spent well over 2 whole years reverse engineering Virtual On Oratorio Tangram to be played online with a US copy by routing the serial cable information over the internet. Let me repeat. 2 YEARS of research and development. The project currently sits in a state of limbo. It's not yet finished, and is near done but not really. Real-life eventually catches up, so this project might never be in a working format.

If you want to read the full interview, you can do so here:
http://www.gamestyle.net/features.php?feature=56

This stuff is not easy. You don't just wave a magic wand and server code just manifests itself. And it drives me mental how many people assume it comes so easily.
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I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list...
Syndalis
rank 8
Posted:
Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:51 pm
quote : #18
profile : pm
Posts: 77
lordnikon wrote:
First of all if its so simple, then why don't you program it? Maybe by next week you could be done? I don't mean to sound harsh, just trying to knock some sense into people. This stuff is not as easy as you think it is. First of all are you even a programmer? Yourself, are you experienced in programming enough to really understand the scope of figuring this stuff out?

Countless threads pop up all the time where people, who do not have any real technical knowledge on the subject say, "oh this shouldn't be hard at all, hopefully some homebrew/programmer will whip up a server for us, its only a matter of time, someone find some guy and make him do this!"

It baffles me how many times I see people saying this exact same thing.

Wanna know how hard this would be? This thing that you say, 'would not be a hard application to write'.

Let me show you just how hard it is:

A quote by programmer Scott Robinson:
"I thought it would easy to do because the Dreamcast link cables are just serial ports with a different voltage than normal computers. Of course, I quickly found out otherwise..."

Scott had spent well over 2 whole years reverse engineering Virtual On Oratorio Tangram to be played online with a US copy by routing the serial cable information over the internet. Let me repeat. 2 YEARS of research and development. The project currently sits in a state of limbo. It's not yet finished, and is near done but not really. Real-life eventually catches up, so this project might never be in a working format.

If you want to read the full interview, you can do so here:
http://www.gamestyle.net/features.php?feature=56

This stuff is not easy. You don't just wave a magic wand and server code just manifests itself. And it drives me mental how many people assume it comes so easily.


Well, he is going way beyond the scope of what I am speaking of here (and good for him!). What it looks like he wants to do is develop a bootloader/prelaunch app that utilizes the inherent networking hardware in a fashion akin to the link cable. Thats INSANE. If he got it to work, he would be a god.

What I am referring to is getting the coder cables, and simply "black boxing" the data to another location. He mentioned my biggest fear in his interview(ie: latency issues), but if he believed that he could run it over dialup that late into the game, he must have gotten past those fears. The voltage MUST be a non-issue, as the serial port can communicate with the PC in other functions, such as debugging dumps.

I am a programmer. I have some projects right now that are consuming ALOT of my time (and none of them for the DC save one). I understand where you are coming from, Lord Nikon. There are alot of people saying that they will bring a game back from the grave right now (Chu Chu Rocket, anyone?), but understand that I did not say that I would develop this, nor do I even own a game that uses a link cable... I simply see something that can be easily done, even if the end result is less than stellar, and VERY cumbersome. (DC + Coder Cable + PC + black box software connecting to exact same chain in reverse on the other end). Hell, I have alot more respect for what that man was trying to accomplish in getting VOOT up with a single disk, and no PC needed.

One last thing. The xbox games that got online without live (namely THPS2x and Halo) did not even use tcp/ip. The data was black-boxed and sent over the web. The one thing they had going for them was easy hardware setup. (ethernet vs. serial linking).

No hard feelings at all, Nikon. I see exactly where you are coming from. And I did not want ANYONE to get their hopes up, this was simply a discussion on the effort/reward of such an undertaking.
  _________________
The Coming of the White...
there are whips in hell and chains in Sheaol.
Excalibur007
rank 7
Posted:
Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:14 am
quote : #19
profile : pm
Posts: 61
I believe Daytona is linkable. Supposedly, there's a cheat code that must be put in to bring up a hidden menu. This may only be in the Japanese version, I don't know. If anyone knows for sure, please post the code.

-Ex
 
qatmix
rank 5
Posted:
Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:24 am
quote : #20
profile : pm
Posts: 36
I spoke to Scott biriefly and ther Voot stuff does work (partially) but you need a BBA.

You need the files from the japanese mirror.

As to the black box method of passing serial data. it is a totally feasible (much more than the AFO bull which is being discussed).
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Dreamcast is King
Morph
unknown
Posted:
Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:51 am
quote : #21
profile : pm
Posts: 299
Syndalis, you are speaking of X-Box Tunnel, am i correct? If i get what Syndalis is talking about, a PC-DC serial cable could do nicely.

A program could be written to allow the link to run over the internet to another console using the PC-DC cable and use it as a sort of Dreamcast Tunnel.

Maaaaaan, words cannot describe how sweet it would be to totally pwn u guys in Virtual On:OT over the net.....

Oh, and I noticed that it says my Unreal Tournament supports a Modular Cable. What is that?
 
lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:11 am
quote : #22
profile : pm
Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
Morph wrote:
Oh, and I noticed that it says my Unreal Tournament supports a Modular Cable. What is that?

Phone cord.
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I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list...
[UKR]DreamcastUK
unknown
Posted:
Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:24 pm
quote : #23
profile : pm
Posts: 233
i got the V3 LINK CABLE from Liksang europe today


And this is what it says on the back...

NOTICE
-------------------
SUBJECT DC GAME LIKE BELOW
F355 CHALLENGE
DAYTONA USA 2001
CAPCOM VS SNK
FULLY COMPATIBLE FOR D.C VS GAMES

do you think this means all the JAP VS games? ie VS Tennis / VS Chess
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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:02 pm
quote : #24
profile : pm
Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
[UKR]DreamcastUK wrote:
DAYTONA USA 2001
CAPCOM VS SNK

These dont work.

[UKR]DreamcastUK wrote:
FULLY COMPATIBLE FOR D.C VS GAMES
do you think this means all the JAP VS games? ie VS Tennis / VS Chess

nope.
  _________________
I'm already numero uno on Dark Helmet's hit list...
[UKR]DreamcastUK
unknown
Posted:
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:48 pm
quote : #25
profile : pm
Posts: 233
so why is it displayed on the box then mate
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DreamcastMagic
banned!
Posted:
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:55 pm
quote : #26
profile : pm
Posts: 1248
[UKR]DreamcastUK wrote:
so why is it displayed on the box then mate


Its just a title, they are online Japanese games of the "VS" series... I should know as I have the only complete online games list for the world Mr. Green

Here they are:
Net Versus Chess
Net Versus Hanafuda
Net Versus Igo
Net Versus Mahjong
Net Versus Renju Gomoku Namebe
Net Versus Reversi
Net Versus Shogi

and all are still online according to Sega of Japan.

Last edited by DreamcastMagic on Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total
 
Doomkiller
banned!
Posted:
Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:01 am
quote : #27
profile : pm
Posts: 197
Hey dreamcastmagic i wanna see this list
 
DreamcastMagic
banned!
Posted:
Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:13 am
quote : #28
profile : pm
Posts: 1248
I would but ...
1. Its a DCM exclusive, I do remember you making your own for Isao.net games but if you want to use mine you must have permission from me, which im not giving out at the time, site is not done (mainly the graphics at the moment are giving me hell has I basically learned how to use Adobe PhotoShop by myself and I got questions that I have to trouble shoot and answer, Im taking a class but that starts this September, but what I have done so far is really good for what I know how to do)
2. DCM's old site was built with Java software and I didn't even bother to make the list HTML, just columns of text put next to each other ... ya I know massively lazy Mr. Green ... maybe tomorrow I will start converting the list to HTML, I have been putting it off because it will take me hours, the Japanese games list has over 170 games and the names will need to be copy and pasted one at a time cuz I can't spell most of those names off the top of my head. Just wait … about 2 weeks for me to have my site done.
 
Doomkiller
banned!
Posted:
Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:29 am
quote : #29
profile : pm
Posts: 197
Cool i didn't really want to use it on my site i just wanted to see it. But hey maybe in the future when my site starts to look a smidge beeter i'll ask if i can use and yes i di the isao.net game list and just finished it really
 
[UKR]DreamcastUK
unknown
Posted:
Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:20 am
quote : #30
profile : pm
Posts: 233
so its false advertising ??

it displays it on the box...

so if i was to buy loads of the VS games would ppl on here have them and play
me online with them

or are they in pure JAP and unable to read and understand
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