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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:44 pm
quote : #1
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Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
This is a thread for talking about connecting your Dreamcast to any display, whether it is an SDTV, CRT Monitor, LCD Monitor, or HDTV.

Please read the site's guide for the Dreamcast here before posting in this thread.

Also, for extended reading, check out: Video Games in an Era of High Definition

Rules for posting in this thread:
  • Try to keep the discussion focused on the Dreamcast even if you have to reference other game consoles.

  • Display lag note #1: Do not troll the thread with, "Well, I don't notice it, so..." If you don't notice the lag, then you are already satisfied with your setup. You can go back to playing games. Just because you don't seem to notice it in certain games doesn't mean it isn't there.

  • Display lag note #2: HDTV's have lag even when a device is connected at its native resolution, and every display performs differently. Some TV's have very little lag, others have much more. My primary computer display has 16ms of lag no matter what, and my other display made by the same manufacturer has 34ms of lag.

  • Display lag note #3: Only post about your TV/Monitor's performance if you are testing it accuratly. This involves splitting the video signal to the HD display and a zero lag display (SDTV or CRT Monitor), running a game that has a millisecond counter (like a racing game), standing back with your digital camera, taking 20-40 pictures, tabulating the difference in each picture and then averaging the results.
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:40 pm
quote : #2
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Posts: 21
Type: PAL
Hey guys its been some time since I posted anything, but I have some fine info for you bro today, I been seeing people use professional broadcast monitors with there gaming set-up and with the way these CRT's are put to together there going to output a clean image, here's what I mean. Very Happy



What do you guys think of a Dramcast with Broadcast Monitors combo?


I posted this on Dreamcast Talk also, I won one on ebay for £58 but I have very little money at the moment.
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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:32 am
quote : #3
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Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
Ah, well. There seems to be confusion here as to why people are using these monitors.

Also, are you aware of the difference between 240p and 480i and how this relates to CRT technology? as well as HD tech?

On CRT TV's, a device rendering in 480i tells the TV to alternate the signal back and forth across 240 odd lines and then 240 even lines. If a device renders in 240p however it will render 240 lines at full beam, and then blank out the other 240 lines. These are known as scanlines, and games that render in 240p on CRT displays have a very still and solid picture. Also, the scanlines tend to accent the pixels making them easier to distinguish.

People use CRT's to play games because they side step added display lag and poor image conversion quality when playing classic video games on HD displays. You can use any CRT, people simply prefer these monitors because they are of high quality. Whether or not your game console displays well on them really all depends on what cables you use to connect to the TV.

Most games render in 480i on the Dreamcast, though a small handful of 2D games like KOF99 and Bangai-O actually render in 240p. These games also don't support VGA.

Really, its not about the "Dreamcast" or a "Sony" Monitor. The real heart of the issue is:

What signal is outputting from your console? (240p, 480i, 480p)
What cables are you using? (RF Switch, Composite, S-Video, RGB/SCART, VGA)
What display are you using? (SDTV, CRT PC Monitor, HD Display = any LCD/Plasma/LED tech)

Feel free to ask more questions and I would be happy to answer them.
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:52 am
quote : #4
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
Here's some more info on the one I just won http://www.medicalvideosystems.com/Monitors/PVM20L2MD.htm

Its asking price is $2625.00 but I got it for £58.00 so the price is not that high on these badboy's, but I'm asking here the brotherhood because that's a lot of money for me and this is a life buy.

Inputs


KOF


would you know anything about how or what adapters I need to get Dreamcast and RGB signal consoles, these inputs look different there is S-Video, I would just like to know as mush info as I can Smile

Thank you wish you happy day dude!

Sincerely


- Barrys_Bapz
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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:32 pm
quote : #5
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Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
Is that your display above in the 2 most recent pics? The one showing the back of the unit and then Garou?

If so is there any way you can take a better full picture of the connection ports in the back?
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SEGA RPG FAN
rank 20
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:26 pm
quote : #6
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Posts: 392
Type: NTSC-U/C
The main reason, I think, people get broadcast monitors is because they can take RGB inputs directly (some also do component). Most of the older consoles like Genesis/Megadrive and SNES can output RGB and it is far superior to composite or RF which is most common with these systems.

In Europe, TVs with RGB SCART connections are fairly common so there is really not much of an advantage to getting a broadcast monitor over them. But, in the US and Canada, we aren't so lucky. In the CRT heyday, you were lucky to get an S-Video input, let alone component.

I use a 27" Sony broadcast monitor for my gaming and my reasons are:
1. RGB input to use with my Genesis
2. Component input to use with DVD player or Gamecube
3. Plenty of S-Video inputs to use with everything else
4. Many broadcast units give you access to picture controls only found in the service menus of normal TVs

The broadcast unit you posted pictures of can do RGB or component video but only 480i. You won't get VGA 480p from the Dreamcast to display on it. You can get 480i RGB from the Dreamcast to display on it, but is not particularly easy because that particular monitor only accepts composite sync while the Dreamcast outputs separate H and V sync.

The best bet with the Dreamcast and that monitor is to track down a high quality S-Video cable. The difference between S-Video and 480i RGB is not huge and they are virtually indistinguishable.




As an aside:
If anyone wants to maximize their picture quality with S-Video, track down a variable "Video delay line." You need breakout cables to split out the Y and C of the S-Video. Connect the C to the delay line, leave the Y alone. Find a stationary image with a hard vertical line and adjust the delay until the color portion of the picture matches the position of the vertical line. It's hard to describe but you'll see the effect if you play with it. This really maximizes the sharpness you can get out of S-Video because you are precisely matching the color and black and white portions of the picture.
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lordnikon
rank 87
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:44 pm
quote : #7
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Posts: 5902
Type: NTSC-U/C
For that broadcast monitor you would have to score some RCA to BNC connectors depending on how you would feed in Component from the DC. However this is the one area where my knowledge is lacking, and that is RGB.

So I have US and Japanese NTSC Dreamcasts. What is the compatibility for RGB cables on the DC and how would you convert that easily to component? I have access to score some DC RGB cables off Yahoo Japan, but would PAL SCART cables work the same when trying to convert the DC to component?
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:45 pm
quote : #8
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
Hey guys I found a video on the monitor, this is the same one I've won Very Happy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXvyid9FVg

PS. Thanks man for sorting out the post.

Thanks
Barrys_Bapz
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:02 pm
quote : #9
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
If I plug'd this cable in the Dreamcast VGA box to RGB would that be the best image output?




This one look pure cool buddy.
or



Do you guys ever see very feint lines on you VGA out put?
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SEGA RPG FAN
rank 20
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:25 pm
quote : #10
profile : pm
Posts: 392
Type: NTSC-U/C
The dreamcast VGA box outputs 480p RGB which won't display on that monitor. You'd have to mod the VGA box (which I'v done) to get 480i.

@Lordnikon, RGB is really region independent unlike NTSC and PAL. It has a horizontal and vertical frequency which more or less determine the resolution. 480i/240p is 15khz horizontal and 60hz vertical. 480p doubles the horizontal frequency to 30khz.

The easiest way to get component out of the DC is to get a SCART to Component converter and buy a SCART cable. You'll only get 480i that way though.

There are really many methods/routes to take and really depends on what's available to you and what your budget is.
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:55 pm
quote : #11
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
I don't have any money dude, I'm in university and man that costs a lot in my 3rd year and last, Mr. Green only £30 to my name Crying or Very sad so the road is the low cost one with the best results, man this is turning into a deep story.

All this input is good, thanks guys.
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:42 am
quote : #12
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
I called in to 2 TV repair shops today and was talking to them about this topic and both said that RGB is the way to good for best image out put, both have never got a Sony in for repair because the build quality is so good both big CRT fan-boys, The only downside is the size of the units and weight.

Here's a Dreamcast RGB SCART Cable Diagram



Here are others: http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm#dcast

I think we are going somewhere with this guys.
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SEGA RPG FAN
rank 20
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:52 am
quote : #13
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Posts: 392
Type: NTSC-U/C
Barrys_bapz wrote:
Do you guys ever see very feint lines on you VGA out put?

That's likely due to bad grounding somewhere in the VGA box or the VGA cable. I bought a cheapo VGA adapter where they forgot to ground the cable shielding and there were faint vertical lines. After grounding it, the lines went away.

Barrys_bapz wrote:
I don't have any money dude

Get an S-Video cable. You won't notice a difference between that and RGB.

If you want to continue down the RGB path you'll need some basic electronics knowledge and soldering skills (for the cheap route) or be willing to shell out for some video converters/adapters and breakout cables (the more expensive route)

Like I said, I've done all of this, and if you're limited to 480i (which you are with that monitor) it's far easier and cheaper to go with S-Video. If you must know, here's why:


A Color CRT TV needs a couple of things to display a signal properly

1.) It needs the luminance (luma) portion of the picture. This is the black and white high detail portion of the picture i.e. the majority of the picture information

2.) It needs the color or chroma portion of the picture. This consists of Red, Green, and Blue (RGB) information.

3.) It needs a sync signal, ultimately horizontal and vertical sync.

With composite video (the most common connection type) all of this information is carried in one signal. The TV has to separate out the individual components. The hardest parts to separate are the Luma and Chroma (via a comb filter), and some TVs are better than others at doing it. The separation is never perfect and you get artifacts which result in a less clear picture.

The next step up is S-Video. This provides separate luma and chroma signals, bypassing the hardest processing step and giving you a very sharp artifact free picture. The TV can easily break down the chroma into RGB at this point and extract the sync from the luma signal.

RGB provides the TV with Red + luma, Green + luma, Blue + luma and sync (either combined composite or separate horizontal and vertical). It has the slight advantage of giving the TV RGB directly, but like I said, it's easy for the TV to separate out those three signals.

The advantage of RGB only comes in when you want to use non-standard resolutions or high resolution. S-Video is limited to 480i (NTSC) or 576i (PAL) standard definition. RGB can display really any resolution, but depends on your device outputting the signal and the device trying to display the signal.



Can you tell I've spent a lot of time messing with this stuff Very Happy ?
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:07 pm
quote : #14
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
I feel your pain bro Very Happy, the journey to find the best image for Dreamcast and Classic Gaming Consoles is a hard road the PVM Box Sony Monitors are getting a lot old school gamer's loving there consoles, I'm sick of these people plugging consoles into LCD and flat panel TV's the image is pure ugly.

Thanks SEGA RPG FAN, we sould go on the Buckfast
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Barrys_bapz
rank 4
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:25 pm
quote : #15
profile : pm
Posts: 21
Type: PAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X8l5TPlU78

What is the box this guy has?
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